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Forums -> Theology and the Bible

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pmhyns




Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:31 pm  Reply with quote

Question about Romans 11:11-24 Ingrafted Branches
I've read over this passage, but I am not sure if I am understanding it correctly.

Quote:
Ingrafted Branches
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011&version=31

From what I read, it sounds like it may be possible to loose your salvation. So, the Jews, because of their unbelief, were cut off from salvation, so that the rest of the world who believed by faith could be grafted in and take their place? But then it goes on to say that because God didn't spare the Jews, be careful because He may not spare you. So, if the gentiles were grafted in because of the Jews unbelief, if they choose not to believe or fall away from God, God will cut them out too, right? It's a confusing passage to think about.
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TrON




Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:07 pm  Reply with quote

Hummm...

The context is a discussion with Gentiles (the Romans in this case but really all Gentiles) v13 "Now I am speaking to you Gentiles". It seems that Paul is warning Gentiles not to be pious, that Israel (the Jews) came first and were chosen by God.

v18 "Do not boast over the branches. If you do remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you."

In other words Israel is the root and the Gentiles are the branches and we should not forget this...God is not done with Israel yet.

It seems overall to talk about how Jews can come to complete faith by grace just as Gentiles can. I don't really see anything that suggest any one person can lose their salvation here. It is more speaking generally about how the path of gentiles and Jews is intertwined "grafted".

..............

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me just as the Father knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:14-16

Once we belong to the Good Shepherd we cannot be stolen. When sheep stray what does a Good Shepherd do? He picks up the stray sheep and brings them back to the flock.
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berechah




Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:22 pm  Reply with quote

This chapter is an excellent one for discussion, although one that you are unlikely to hear a sermon on.
Christ told his disciples that, (John 10:16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."
Neither Christ nor Paul set out to start a brand new religion as Christianity has evolved into. Gentiles were welcomed into the house of Israel. Some (not all) of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off and room was made for the inclusion of the wild branches (Gentiles) into the olive tree (Israel). It is approximated that as many as one-third of Jews during the first century believed that Yeshua (Jesus) was the Messiah. While that may seem significant by our standards, it is rejection that all Israel did not recognize their Messiah.
Gentiles could come in to Israel, but were warned not to be arrogant or think that because they were so special that they were allowed in -- we are all saved only because of the grace of God.
"When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" there will be a corporate acceptance by Jews of their Messiah and "ALL Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:15-16).
One evil lie is the concept of "Replacement Theology." This is the idea that the Church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people. This is the belief that was held by many of the so-called church fathers like Chrysostom. They believed that God was finished with the Jews. But does this passage really support that belief?
I believe in a God that does not make mistakes and have to come up with a "plan B." His plan is the same from the beginning of creation to the end of time. His promises and calling are irrevocable. He offers redemption and inclusion into the house of Israel to all who call on his name, both Jews and Gentiles.


Last edited by berechah on Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pmhyns




Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:03 pm  Reply with quote

Thanks so much for your replies, its good to hear other points on view on these passages.

Romans itself is a very interesting book to read, and I wish that things like this were discussed more clearly.

So, even though the Jews fell into disbelief, they can still come back to God through faith.
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berechah




Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:42 pm  Reply with quote

Romans is indeed a very fascinating book.
Not just that they "can" come back to God, but they "will." The prophecy in Romans 11:15-16 points to a time when there will be a corporate acceptance of the Messiah by the Jewish people. This differs from our Americanized individualism.
Everyone who has ever come to God throughout history has come by faith. There is not and has never been another way to God.
About the "unbelief' of the Jews... Throughout the last 2000 years the Jews (not each and every one, but a great multitude of them) have been faithful to study, obey, honor, and teach the words of the commandments of God and follow Him with their whole hearts despite persecutions from all sides including by many who claimed to be followers of Christ. While they may not have believed that Yeshua is the Messiah (not yet anyway), they are still redeemed by God.
Romans 10
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
This is actually a quote from Joel 2:32 and both references use the tetragamaton or "YHWH." We are saved when we call on the name of God.

We as Gentile believers have much we can learn about the rich roots of our faith (remember, the roots and trunk support the branches...) from Jewish scholars. Those Jewish scholars who have come to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah provide us with a much deeper understanding about scripture and our place as members of the house of Israel.
One Messianic organization that I simply cannot recommend enough is First Fruits of Zion (www.ffoz.org).
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WhiteKnight1957

Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 75

Sat May 03, 2008 2:46 pm  Reply with quote

Lose of salvation
This is a very hard scripture, and has been debated for quite some time. Let me assure you first of all, you CAN NOT lose your salvation. When you get saved, you become a member of God's family, right then and there. If you are a member of YOUR family, there is NO WAY to undo that! Your parents and you may have a falling away, and never speak to each other, but you are still a member of that family. Now, let's give some scripture on that. Jn 6:37 "..him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jn 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life (what kind of life? ETERNAL! from the moment you accept him); and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man (that would be YOU) pluck them out of my Fathers hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no MAN is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand (and just a thought, are you able to jump out of God's hand, I DON'T think sooo). I and my Father are one." And if you can lose your salvation, how many sins does it take to lose it? 1, 2, half dozen? If it's one, then who can be saved? If you sin, even a "minor" sin, and die immed., you lost your salvation haven't you?? Some scriptures for you to look up and think about: Gal 3:10, Jms 2:10 Gal 2:21, Rm 8:38-39*, Jn 1:12-13, 1Jn 5:11-13 Eph 1:13, 4:30, Ijn 2:25, 2Tim 1:12, Titus 1:2. As far as the grafting of the branches: Israel is, was and always will be God's chosen people. What he is talking about here is the setting aside of Israel for a time (the time of the Gentiles) because of their unbelief. As far as Christ coming here to NOT set up a "new" religion, that is partly correct. Christ says: "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his diciples, saying, Whom do men say that I am?......But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (the "rock" of who he said Jesus was, not on Peter personally, this is not the founding of the Catholic church) I will build my church; and the gates of h*ll shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:13-18
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berechah




Sat May 03, 2008 7:12 pm  Reply with quote

Not disagreeing with you. I just want to point out in the original language the word translated here as "church" really meant "called out ones." In modern times we often view "church" as an institution. The Biblical references to God's "remnant" that He has reserved for Himself is a better picture. The "called out ones" are the same people who God has always sought. That is Jews and Gentiles (the Patriarchs were Gentiles as well as many of us today) that choose to worship and obey God.
Note though that not all the branches were broken off. God has always had a remnant of true worshipers...
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